The actual fitment is not rocket science and neither is the software. The problem is the way the siamese port works. There was a website but I can't find it. If you have two injectors in the same port how is it going to work? Or do you fire the one injector for the same port? I think that is the problem.

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Chris

Everything I like is either
illegal, immoral or fattening.

both myself and the good Dr put the links on the first page of this thread

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the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates

" Or do you fire the one injector for the same port? I think that is the problem"
Yea, the problem is with a Big single to flow enough for both ports, you get NO low-flow flexibilty..and two small ones just dont have the correct coverage i think....

I'm personally thinking of using a twin-throttle arangement (Cooper "S" manifold style) with a trumpet and injector for each throttle... Box the trumpets and blow into that with the turbo.....

With the injectors further up-stream i hop e to emulate the twin SU's but also have the tunability of EFI.....

I'll stick it on the list of things to do... its item number 1,998,465 i think.....

J

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A friend of mine has a Suzuki GTI powered Clubman sports (race) car. He runs twin Webers on it now- found lots more power than he ever could with the injection.

I've heard a similar story re the 2.0L Vauxhalls they cram into Minis in the UK.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

yeah dr, i hear that in UK mags and websites all the time, and also form a heap of people here who are fonder of the old school technology. i do not believe it for one second. her is why.

if you tune a weber for maximum power in a narrow band it necessarily compromises the flexibility in other parts of the rev range, because the best of the best carbs is always limited. this is not an issue in a race car that has a narrow powerband, and spends the majority of its time either full open throttle or full closed throttle. partial throttle openings are only used in corners, and if you have the gearing set up properly, then you rarely need a partial throttle in a corner outside the ideal rev bandof the carb.

properly set up fuel injection will ALWAYs give you a more flexible engine and the SAME maximum power as a carb. but just like a carb you do have to set it up properly. i know plenty people who know how to set up carbs, can't be bothered learning something new, so swap carbs onto an injected motor. but if they spent as much time tuning the entire injection system, including manifolds, injectors (both size and number), and tuned the injection and ignition sequence, then you will get the same maximum power. BUT you will also get far more flexibility than a carb can ever get. imagine being able to have an almost infinite range of idle and main jets, and emulsion tubes and accelerator pump for your weber that you could change whilst the car is on the move, and in reaction to the load conditions presented . that is what efi gives you.

michael

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the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates

I saw a Mini advertised as original from the factory with multi point injection on it. Did the factory make a multi point injection for the last cars?

http://www.londonmini.com/stock.asp

Four cars down the page.

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Chris

Everything I like is either
illegal, immoral or fattening.

The '97-2000 cars had miltipoints, airbags and intrusion bars as standard.

There will be only two injectors. Say (A) delivers to cylinder (1&2) and (B) delivers to cylinder (3&4) Cylinder firing sequence is 1 - 3 - 4 - 2, so injector control sequence would be A - B - B - A. It will be a bit athsmatic but a challange. I'm only in early stages of development so thing may change as I go along. I also have to agree, in terms of control EFI wins hands down. The only limit is the miniscule time constant required to turn the injector off and on.

Fez

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1965 850 Mini Van
1972 Clubman Van
Member of SDMC

Did you also see the bit in the "Tech" section about siamese ports and fuel injection:
http://www.planet.eon.net/%7Echichm/efi/siamese.htm

In that Marcel suggests that one cyclinder recieves injection from the port and the other recieves injection down the open valve, in order to stop charge stealing. (the inside cyclinder from robbing the charge from the outside cyclinder)

what I didn't get was if the two inlet phases follow each other as they do (see piccie below)



then what is to stop you using a single injection to cover the inlet phase on both cylinders ( 180 degrees between C and B), is this too long a duration for an injector to work? or would it require too much fuel flow? would a larger fuel injector do it and because you would be trying to inject half as many times you would have less problems with the injector 'trying' to keep up at high revs. Which I think was one of the problems Marcel had with the smaller injectors.

This would mean both cyclinders recieve thier charge down an open valve which would seem to me to minimise the possibility of charge stealing.

Mind you the sum total my knowledge on fuel injection came from Marcel's page

Can someone explain why I am wrong cause I found this stuff interesting.

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Roads need more corners
A Deluxe(CG13DE), 2 Clubbies(998 and 1275) and 2 Morris 1100Ss

I dunno either, but it is an interesting read.
MPI in a Mini with siamese inlet ports is apparently not just a case of grabbing an ECU and some injectors and expecting it to work.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

Yes it is a very good page thanks for posting it.

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Roads need more corners
A Deluxe(CG13DE), 2 Clubbies(998 and 1275) and 2 Morris 1100Ss

fuzzy, you seem to be assuming that there is a constant flow of air, so you can have a constant flow of fuel. This is not the case. from the diagram you can see that there is only a small overlap of valve opening time between the valves in the same port. This means that the air pulses. air has inertia, which means that as the first valve opens it increases in velocity, but not at an ideal rate. the speed of the air actually lags the opening of the valve by some amount of time, and is still moving as the valve closes. this results in a slight variation in the pressure as well as the speed as the second valve starts to open. then the air speeds up again as the second valve opening event occurs, but not necessarily at the same rate as in the first valve opening event. You then have to match your valve opening events with all that complex air movement to the injector opeing event, i.e. when and how much to open the injector.

I don't think that these problems are insurmountable, after all Rover did make a MPI engine didn't they? From what i read, Marcel was having trouble with the sequencing of the injectors to match the valve opening events, using the original computer that he selected to do the job. Most of these things are pretty dumb, and a lot of the assumptions made in the original programming of them do not account for the siamese port problem, in that they only allow one injector opening per revolution or don't have the ability to vary a number of other parameters as well. A lot of computers cannot be used with drect injection 2 stroke motors for the same reasons.

michael

_________________
the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates

OK, thanks, like I said I find this stuff interesting...

So (correct me if I am wrong) but the outside cylinder (2nd cylinder to draw from the port) should get greater airflow as the air already has velocity (compared to the inside cylinder, 1st cylinder to draw from the port). This would mean that it would need more fuel if it weren't to run lean? Am I right so far?

It might be able to compensate for that by running a smaller duration injection and tilting(sorry don't have a better way to describe it) the timing to favour the 2nd (outside) cylinder.

Say 40% of the duration was spent injecting the inside cylinder and 60% on the outside cylinder, those are figures plucked out of the air.

So the injection would look like (blue) the green would be my original idea:
The pink line might relect the amount of flow past the valves hence the greater airflow for the 2nd(outside) cylinder? If you add the two valve lift lines together it would approximately add up, I guess it not that simple(there would be restrictions of flow by the valves) but....



Again please tell me where I am wrong

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Roads need more corners
A Deluxe(CG13DE), 2 Clubbies(998 and 1275) and 2 Morris 1100Ss

i was just theorising out loud so to speak not telling you you were wrong

you might be on to something there. if you look at the theory behind the scatter cams and why they were used, you will probably find similar stuff going on. i think it was partly to do with compensation for the outer cylinders running richer due to the effects of the siamese ports with a single weber, although some of these effects were caused by the shape of the manifold. by changing the duration of the cams to be uneven for each pair of cylinders, you can use the inertia of the air to your advantage by opening the second valve in the pair earlier? not the best idea for smooth running though with a torque cycle of bang - BANG - bang - BANG

bet the doctor could tell us if my theory on scatter cams is anywhere near the mark

_________________
the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates

Original idea of scatter cams was to cut down the port sharing time to reduce this interference. this was done by advancing one inlet and retarding the other. Helps, but you can't eliminate this problem really.
It's generally accepted that scatter cams with less than 290* duration don't work, and even bigger ones that do take careful setting up.
Out here, some well known Mini tuners reckon they are a waste of time....

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.