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PostPosted: Fri Sep 28, 2007 10:28 pm 
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awdmoke wrote:
:? Hmmmm, perhaps it might be worth bedding in your new pads
(on a controlled private road of course) as I think it may actually be your brand new piston seals pushing the pots all the way back.


That might be difficult, as we can't really get enough brakes to stop the car at all in its current state :shock:

awdmoke wrote:
And asking the obvious, the rears are adjusted properly so that you aren't using up fluid capacity there too?


Yep, the rears haven't been touched and the pedal was good before the conversion.

Mick wrote:
I think it works by squeezing all the airbubbles down to a tiny poofteenth of their original size inside the brake system. Then they suddenly find it much easier to float up to the top through all the small passages.

There's also a procedure to bleeding the wheels in the right order, can't remeber it right now but it is in the manual.


That's a neat trick, I'll try that one tomorrow. There's going to be another round of bleeding then, as I have 5/8" rear slaves arriving to replace the existing 3/4".

If my theory of swept fluid volume is correct, these should provide a small improvement to the pedal height as they will require less fluid volume before they engage the drums. I might just grab a disc-brake master anyway and be done with it...

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 29, 2007 4:02 pm 
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Thanks heaps for explanation on the camber gauge, will come in handy when I set up my front end.
Cheers Pete

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 6:34 pm 
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Your brake pedal issue appears to be not that uncommon:

http://www.ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=22151&highlight=brakes

I'm not sure what the solution is but have an interest in you finding out. :wink:

You might find some more info on the UK forums where these things are more common.

Good luck.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:20 pm 
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Time for another update.

When we left the car on Friday it had basically no brakes. The first pedal stroke went all the way to the floor.. a second in quick succession brought the height up a bit but not enough to drive the car with.

Saturday morning, went back to the car and the first thing I did was check the pedal. What do you know, it went hard half way through the first stroke. Don't know why, don't really care.. we have a pedal, probably enough to stop the car with :D I suspect Mick was right, and overnight any air in the system has percolated out of the nooks and crannies.

Crawled underneath and had a look, there was a bit of fluid weeping from the bleed nipples on the alloy calipers, so nipped them up a bit more. A few firm pedal pushes later, and no more fluid leaks, so we're all good.

With the chances of getting on the road improving, it was time to sort out one or two other minor problems. First and foremost was the rock-hard clutch. I'd asked about this problem a week or two ago in another thread and the general consensus was that the clutch hose was rooted. I'd bought a set of braided hoses with the Mini Spares order, so there was a brand new item ready to go on. First, the old one had to come off...

This is the love/hate relationship I have with Mini's. Not nearly enough space to get tools into position without removing half the engine first. First I had to get the clutch pipe off in order to remove the hose.. that was bad enough. This hadn't been off the car in the 12 years I've owned it, so you can imagine the state it was in. In the end it came off intact, and 2 minutes on the wire wheel later:

Image

Once the pipe was off we could get to the hose. That came off easily and as expected, was almost totally blocked. On went the new braided item, on with the pipe, a quick bleed and and Oh My God, what an amazing difference. If there's a better clutch pedal feel in a Mini, I want to see it 8) 8)

Image

The last thing to do was get the wheels on the ground so we could set the toe before the first road test. The Loctite'd wheel stud had had 24 hours to cure, and as it turned out caused no fuss at all -- the nuts went on without fuss, and no hint that the stud was going to slip. Yay Loctite :D

I was going to set up a string line to set the toe-out, but after looking at the settings (1/16th" total toe out for both wheels.. that's less than one millimetre per wheel) I figured there was no way I'd be able to measure that with any sort of precision. In the end I aligned it by eye -- with the steering wheel perfectly straight, I adjusted the track rod ends on both sides until the leading and trailing edges of the front tyre make a line which meets the rear tyre, and then added one quarter turn of the rack to give a tiny bit of toe-out. I figured that should be plenty accurate enough to road test the car, and get it to a professional alignment shop. Eyeballing the alignment on the Bini and my brother's clubby in the same way looks exactly the same, so it can't be far wrong.

So with the caster bars set to standard length and 1.5 degrees negative camber on both sides it was off for the first road test. There were no problems at all with caliper clearance to the rest of the suspension or the wheels. Don't know what Mini Spares were fussing about, it's all good 8)

Even with a half-height pedal, the first brake test was pretty impressive. I'm so used to giving the brakes a couple of taps before I need them that I found myself doing that automatically, and that gave me a pretty strong pedal. What's more, the pedal effort required to stop the car with the 4-pot calipers is pretty lineball with that needed with drums, only now the car doesn't try to fire you off the road -- it stops perfectly straight :D :D

Or, it would, if the car drove in a straight line in the first place. This is the geometry problem I mentioned before, the car's probably had a whack in a PO's life because with the caster bars at the standard length, the car pulled strongly to the left. The actual toe alignment was pretty good -- with the wheel straight, the car went straight.. it just pulled hard to the left.

Having a long think about this, I decided that reducing the positive caster on the driver's side while increasing it on the passenger's would reduce the tendency to pull left. It took a lot of adjustment, but in the end the car drives in a straight line without any hands on the wheel. I haven't measured it since I got it perfect, but at one point along the way there was more than 20mm difference in wheelbase between each side :shock: :shock: Turns out this isn't unprecedented -- my brother's clubby has at least that much difference, and it points and brakes perfectly straight.

So, with the alignment pretty good and the brakes OK, it was time to replace the 3/4" rear wheel cylinders with 'S'-type 5/8" items. In one strong brake test I managed to lock both rear wheels, (thankfully after I got the alignment right, otherwise the car would have probably swapped ends) so that's definite evidence that the 5/8" rears are a necessity with discs.

Another cow of a job, that one. First I had to drill the backplaces to take the 'S' cylinders, as they have the locating pin on the other side to the 3/4" cylinders. Next, I very nearly cross threaded both pipes when refitting them because they wouldn't sit straight in the cylinders. A couple of hours, much swearing and bleeding fingertips later, they went on straight, thankfully.

One last bleed (mine, and the brakes) and the pedal was quite a bit better. Still nowhere near what I want, but easily the equal of drums after a couple of weeks use. Seems the smaller-diameter rear cylinders did have a positive effect on the pedal height, so maybe my theory that my drum master cylinder isn't delivering enough fluid has some merit after all. When I get the car back to Melbourne, I'll grab a larger-diameter 'S' master cylinder and fit that, and then it should be case closed.

So that's about it. It took five long days, but we've successfully converted from drums to slotted, four piston alloy calipers and fully adjustable suspension. This is the end result.. 2 degrees negative camber looks mean:

Image

I still want to get a proper wheel alignment done, but after a couple of hours on the road today it feels like it's probably not necessary in the short term. The car steers and stops better now than in any other time I've owned it. In hard cornering, the front end bites and sticks, and the tail drifts every-so-slightly. Muuuuucho fun factor :D :D It's also heartening to know that the brakes are only going to get better as they're bedded in 8)

Anyone who like me has been wondering if this can be done -- the answer is a resounding 'yes'. 4 piston calipers clamping 7.5" brakes under 10" Contessa's -- it fits, it works, brilliantly 8) 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:30 pm 
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Are those Contessas the std Mini offset, or the LS offset (less track) ones?
I doubt the 4 pots would fit in the latter, S calipers usually/often need a grind near the bleed nipple.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:33 pm 
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They're the standard offset, not LS.. and there's not more than 2mm clearance at the back of the caliper.. :shock: :shock:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:47 pm 
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sgc wrote:
They're the standard offset, not LS.. and there's not more than 2mm clearance at the back of the caliper.. :shock: :shock:

Those calipers must be Phat then, I have miles of room with S ones... :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 9:53 pm 
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Phat. Capital 'P' Phat 8)

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 10:27 pm 
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Black calipers always look nice


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:22 pm 
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excellent... I remember my old wide offset contessas over S calipers scraped on the balancer strip that was inside one of them.

Get that little sucker back to Melbourne so I can try my alloy S wheels on those brakes - what's the ETA?

I swapped my rears to the front on the weekend and had to knock the balancers off the inside of them as they hit on the caliper - lots of clearance otherwise so I'm confident!

the reason I swapped the fronts to the back was because I've been trying to do my own alignment for a year or so, and shagged 2 pairs of tyres with my crappy efforts :lol: I had a proper alignment done on Friday, I was close, but not quite

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 11:31 pm 
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skssgn wrote:
Get that little sucker back to Melbourne so I can try my alloy S wheels on those brakes - what's the ETA?


We're going to drive it down in 4 legs -- Morayfield -> Surfers, Surfers -> Newcastle, Newcastle -> Myrtleford, Myrtleford -> Melbourne.

Should be back in Melbourne on October 28th if all goes well.

You're in Wodonga, no? I'll wave as we drive through :D Planning to turn off the Hume at Gundagai and come over the mountains, time permitting.. should make for a nice drive :)

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:40 am 
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sgc wrote:
Phat. Capital 'P' Phat 8)

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It might be cos it's late and I should be getting my beauty rest, but is there a spacer in that caliper? Like the type used with vented metro discs?

Probably imagining things.......

Looks nice though!!

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:50 am 
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skssgn wrote:
excellent... I remember my old wide offset contessas over S calipers scraped on the balancer strip that was inside one of them.


I gave up dynamically balancing Contessas with inner and outer weights years ago. I find they run much better with a single row of stick-ons in the middle, behind the spokes. No shake at all.
Got this tip from my old mate in the tyre shop, he's been in the game for years. :wink:

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:57 am 
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sgc wrote:

We're going to drive it down in 4 legs -- Morayfield -> Surfers, Surfers -> Newcastle, Newcastle -> Myrtleford, Myrtleford -> Melbourne.


There's a coffee brake/car check over here if you want it , halfwayish between Surfers and Newcastle .

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:49 am 
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sports850 wrote:
There's a coffee brake/car check over here if you want it , halfwayish between Surfers and Newcastle .


Hey, thanks for the offer.. if I were driving I'd take you up, but I'm meeting the car in Newcastle, my father is driving it that far and he'll only stop for fuel ;)

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