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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:26 pm 
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848cc
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Joined: Fri Jan 26, 2007 11:15 am
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Location: Hamilton, NZ
Hi everyone,

just had a crazy thought that a mini head is screaming out to have solenoids mounted on top of it to open valves, which is controlled by a laptop etc. This would be a great way to vary valve lift while driving etc. With the power of the laptop (or a hardwired chip) the options are endless. Ignition could also be hooked up. All the lappy would need is a wired in crank sensor, and the rest could happen from there.

Has anyone else had a similar idea or seen this in action?

Please put forward any thoughts or ideas...

Chris


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 12:40 pm 
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All the big manufacturers (Honda, etc) have failed to get directly actuated valves to work reliably in their R & D labs, but hey - don't let that stop you :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:01 pm 
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Location: Hawthorn, Vic, Australia
I would also love to do this, but i'm lead to believe that the amount power required to move a valve is way more than a solenoid is capable of providing.

I haven't seen figures of the power requirements to open and hold valves. I suppose that would be the first thing to get mesurements of.

Also another problem would be very accurate postion sensing of the engine. As well as determining starting position.


Last edited by lovely2 on Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:13 pm 
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Even F1 cars have camshafts still, although the valve springs have been replaced with nitrogen powered air cylinders.
But as said don't let this stop you... :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 1:19 pm 
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suddenly my screamer 850 is sounding much more feasible.. :P

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 2:47 pm 
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1098cc
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BMW and Mercedes were recently (last five years) playing with pneumatic and hydraulic valve actuation. The BMW's pneumatic system had a flaw in it, in that, pneumatic systems are on or off - just like a solenoid. The problem they were having is that this placed large amounts of stress on the valves as they slammed home - they were breaking the heads off the valves, etc. :shock: Whereas a cam system, or even the Mercedes Hydraulic system, is gentler. The hydraulic system has a small amount of inbuilt "cushioning", through the liquid. It worked reliably enough, but was held up by costs. With a cam, the valve moves quickly at mid stroke, but slowly at the start and finish. :wink:
Another problem was the extra room required above the head for all the hardware - whereas the old OHV setup on a Mini is much more compact. Even a K1100 head would most likely be more compact than pneumatic. I'm not sure how big the solenoids would need to be to move the valve. :?
You'd also need top notch solenoids - how many cycles would they go through before you had to replace them? Think it through - a valve opens and closes every 2nd revolution. At a lowish 3000rpm, that's 1500 cycles per minute. That's 3000 movements (1 open, 1 close) per minute. That's 50 movements per second, per valve. Now think F1 - 20,000rpm, that's 20,000 movements per minute, that's 333 movements per second! :o
Here's why I've mentioned F1. I'd imagine your idea is based on the thought that this would be better than a pushrod valvetrain, and a pushrod valvetrain's biggest problem is at high revs. Minis have been raced at over 10,000rpm, they were doing it in the 60's (short stroke 970 'S' motors, somehow driving the dizzy at half the normal speed so the points could keep up! See MiniWorld...). That's still around 166 movements per second. And by that point, you're creating problems elsewhere in the engine, as a long stroke engine like the A Series will have massive linear piston speeds. F1 engines that run at 20,000 rpm have a bore of 98mm. Working the calculations, that means they have a stroke of around 35mm - you can imagine their piston speeds are relatively low compared to their centrifugal speed. Compare that to an A Series, with a stroke between 68 and 84mm. To get an A Series to rev past 10,000, you'll have piston speeds higher than F1. Then think about changing gear at those engine speeds! I think it was Eddie Irvine (driving an old C Type Jaguar at the time) who said that he'd love to have a real gearchange in F1 again, but changing gears at over 12,000 would shatter the drivers' wrists. :shock:
F1 is so intriguing - think about how many spark cycles they do per minute. V8 @ 20,000 = 80,000 little fires per minute, 1,333 per second. Wow... :lol:
So, yes, your idea is achievable, but it is a huge amount of work (as others have pointed out), and will cause extra stress on the head and valves. You'd need powerful, small, long-lasting solenoids with damping at the point where they "close". And it won't provide a return anywhere near as big as your outlay - the only real advantages you'd have would be in controlling the valve lift... But that's an advantage only maximized when you take out the carbie and throttle bodies and put in fuel injection (preferably directly into the combustion chambers, next to the spark plug, similar to the Alfa Romeo JTS system), then use the valve lift as your throttle (that was the point of BMW and Mercedes' research - it was not because their current valve operation systems (OHC/DOHC) were inefficient). If you can solve these problems... :? :wink:
I'm not meaning to flame you, just to point out the problems. But don't stop thinking - without lateral thinkers, we wouldn't have the Mini. :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 3:36 pm 
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I've had thoughts on similar lines but using the idea of rotary "valves" since reading about someones experimental rotary valved head on a holden (I think it was tested ona holden , can't find the article now ...) . Basically instead of valves etc the head had two chain driven hardened steel pipes spinning across the top with ports cut into the pipe opening directly into the combustion chamber . I can imagine finding a way to seal the pipes against the forces of the combustion would be challenging to say the least but if it could be made work imagine having no moving valve components other than 2 hollow shafts , one for induction and one for exhaust ....

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 5:20 pm 
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848cc
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Location: hoxton park,sydney a place where our council bins are so small you couldn't bath a baby in them!!
it is possible to do this using a simple coil and magnet similar to a linear motor
but the problem is that the power required to operate and set off the coils is much larger than what it takes the camshaft to do the same thing when fully oiled up the camshaft doesn't actaully cost the engine much power, a few companies have tried similar valving using a giant injector but to no avail with engine speed of any decent speed
one idea floating around was to use NITNOL (it is a wire like product that contracts when a current is supplied )

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:27 pm 
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1098cc
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The rotary valve idea isn't a bad one. And it's actually something that's being worked on, by a company looking to sell its design: http://www.coatesengine.com/csrv.html
Looks pretty good. I don't imagine sealing the valves would be too big a concern, because a little bit of pressure back into the valve chamber could be used to close floating rings/thrust bearings along the pipe, and the pressure would minimize the need for any lubrication - similar to a dentist's drill, which runs on air bearings.
Their design is pretty complex, I guess they've figured that a simple pipe wouldn't work, although I'm not sure why it wouldn't... I reckon the best (simple) setup would have a second (double) pipe inside the main pipe - external pipe for air, the internal pipe as a fuel rail, which would inject fuel when the valve was open. That's what Coates appears to have.
If only they'd do a head for an A Series... Oh well, I guess we'll just have to be satisfied with the KAD and K1100 heads.
Thinking about the Rotary Valve idea put it in my head that, if you wanted to do solenoid operation, perhaps it would be better with a different style valve. A sliding valve would almost work, but you'd have difficulty sealing the valves. Perhaps another style of valve..? I'll leave it to your imagination...


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 6:40 pm 
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If you are going to all the effort to remove the valves and replacing them with soleniods why not go all the way and replace the pistons with soleniods. 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:00 pm 
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1098cc
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Careful with statements like that - someone will come on here and start telling us to put rotaries in all our cars... :roll: :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:10 pm 
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Tadhg wrote:
Careful with statements like that - someone will come on here and start telling us to put rotaries in all our cars... :roll: :lol:

(puts fireproof suit on) :wink: If rotaries were the answer all cars would have em... the fact only one company made them work and it sent another to the wall trying tells you something. :P

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:25 pm 
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848cc
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Location: Hamilton, NZ
Righto righto, it was just an idea.

Looking at a mini head, it is relatively easy to see that it could work, provided of course the solenoids were up to it. Granted pushing 200lb springs isn't going to be easy, and there are also problems with providing enough current.

Comparing with an F1 car may be alittle over the top, as I would imagine a few gearbox and bottom end mods would be needed to cope with those sorts of rev's.

What I guess it comes down to is positives and minus'. Clearly, it is not going to increase flow as it will only allow through it the same amount. It will marginally increase horsepower through lack of pressure on cam, although a cam may still be needed to drive oil pump. The only real benefit for going down this track would be the adjustability of opening duration and lift. I suppose the negatives involve a hell of a lot of work for bugger all gain.

Well it was a good idea, but perhaps I will focus on porting a nice head rather than this, although I do like the sound of the rotary valve....

If anyone else has any other thoughts relating to alternative ways to open a valve, please post here.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:38 pm 
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Chris, don't discount the load on your alternator to drive all this too. Energy (to run solenoids) isn't free.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 7:48 pm 
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As an aside, at the place where I got my car dynoed at there is a rotary valve thing on a desk near his office, looked like a manifold actually, with the valves acting like little throttles, well on the intake at least.

It had a name cast onto it "The <something> Rotary Valve" it looke real old. Oh and there was a green Lamborghini is a sideways rear V engine of some sort but yeah that's another tangent altogether.

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