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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2022 9:47 pm 
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Hey Brains trust,

Midway through my engine build and I have the option of 2 remote housings that i have lying around. I've never paid attention before, but having them side by side i noticed a few differences between each. I'm sure this isnt news to most people on here, but i found it interesting.

Can somebody explain the differences to me? I can see what they are - but when did they change, any theory as to why the changes took place?

Im curently cleaning both of them up, checking threads and generally just checking everything out before making a decision on which one im using.


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PostPosted: Sat May 07, 2022 10:33 pm 
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Drawing shows 13 progressive changes to this part over about a decade with holes deleted, added, bosses coming and going. Unfortunately, the purpose of these changes is not stated.


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 10:13 am 
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The bottom unit in photo 2 has had the Spring Retaining Cap Part No 22A85 (hexagon headed bolt)modified , whether it by by the factory or aftermarket, by drilling and tapping to incorporate a grease nipple to provide lubrication to the Anti Rattle Plunger Part No 22A84

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 10:26 am 
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The gear lever was changed around, parts manuals talk about ‘early type’ but I can’t see a year, maybe that 68 timeline when a few things changed.

The level, seat and retaining was changed maybe the housing as well ??? Eg http://www.minispares.com/product/Class ... 0catalogue

Having just done my anti rattle and hearing/feeling the noise a worn plunger makes, I would go with the grease nipple one and renew the plunger as it’s cheap

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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 1:11 pm 
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eightfifty wrote:
Drawing shows 13 progressive changes to this part over about a decade with holes deleted, added, bosses coming and going. Unfortunately, the purpose of these changes is not stated.


Where do i find said drawing?

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1964 MORRIS 850 - POST ZOMBIE APOCALYPSE CAFE RACER INSPIRED.

https://spotify.link/D0P4KtIP2yb

1098 +0.40
266 Kent Cam
GR Flat top pistons
HS6
1.3:1 Roller tip rockers
Stupid high CR


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 4:48 pm 
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Since someone has highlighted the spring retaining cap and associated parts, let's focus on these. The plunger, whose correct name is Control Shaft Damper Plunger, was part number 22A84 for Cooper ADO50 and Deluxe YDO5, but in about October 1967, this was changed to locally made part AYA3095, the difference being that AYA3095 has a hole drilled through it to accommodate the provision of a grease nipple in a now-modified cap, which used to be 22A85 and is now AYA3094 with 1/4 unf 24 threaded hole in the end. This was used for YDO5, YDO22 and YDO23 up until the introduction of the rod change gearbox. Interestingly, the spring also changed from UK part AEG3123 to local part AYA3059 but both had the dimensions. One of the holes in the bottom of the housing is a drain hole, presumably to let water out, but this (and other holes) were also plugged with brass plugs to keep dust out. Thanks for asking about the drawings. It is not feasible to make the drawings accessible to the public due to the number and size of the files involved. The best I can do is to present what I think is interesting in my Engineering Series books. You asked an interesting question. I would not have thought there were so many differences in this part over the years. regards Tony


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PostPosted: Sun May 08, 2022 8:04 pm 
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In the interests of ensuring that correct information is distributed to the the Mini world I need to clarify some of the comments noted above in relation to Remote Control components.
I have researched a number of Parts Catalogues including HYL3030 - Mini Cooper - Supplement to HYL2980 Morris 850 (Page 19 Items 21 and 19), PUB1011 - The Mini & Morris 1100 Series (Page FC8-1 Items 20 and 18), PUB1038 - Mini K (Page F5, No item references given) and PUB1056 - The Mini Clubman Series (Page F10 Items 20 and 23). I was unable to reference PUB1056 - The Mini Series at this stage.
From these references I can confirm that the nut unit started as Part No 22A85 in HYL2980 and continued this number through to and including PUB1038 - Mini K with the Part No change to AYA3094 occurring in PUB1056. The name of this component began as Cap - Spring Retaining to Nut in PUB1038 then simply Nut - Cap in PUB1056.
The Plunger started as 22A85 - Plunger - Control Shaft Damper being renamed Plunger in PUB1038, retaining this name in PUB1052 however by this stage the Part Number had become AYA3095.
There is no reference to the inclusion of a grease nipple in the Cap P/N 22A85/AYA3094 until PUB1038 and PUB1052. Both publications list a straight and a 45 degree nipple, P/Nos UHN400 and UHN445 but neither publication is clear as to there use.

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 7:16 am 
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Fortunately for us, vehicles are designed and manufactured from technical drawings and not from parts catalogues.

Drawings for the cap AYA3094 and plunger AYA3095 are shown below. These indicates the date at which the drawings were made Sep 67, and the date at which the drawings were released for manufacture of that part Feb/Mar 1968. The drawings also indicate the model first used, in this case, YDO5. These dates are close to the introduction of the 4 speed synchromesh transmission (9YG/Ta/H in the case of YDO5). If these parts were first used on the Mini K, as implied above, the drawing would state 2/YDO5. To give an example of how inaccurate the Parts Catalogues can be, PUB1011 omits to list the plunger AYA3095 but does list the cap AYA3094. PUB1056M lists both the matching cap and plunger. According to PUB1011, base model YDO4 saloon and van continued to use an (ungreased) cap and plunger.

Kindly note that PUB1056 is not The Mini Clubman Series as stated by the previous poster. The Mini Clubman Series is PUB1052.

For the benefit of the OP who has had to endure all this learned discussion, the short answer is that if you have a 4 speed synchromesh gearbox, the one with the grease nipple is probably the correct one for your model (unless it is a YDO4 Van or Morris Mini Minor), but I can see in your pictures that this one has some damage where the rubber plug goes where it joins the differential case where someone has probably tried to lever the part off the case.


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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 9:16 am 
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Thank you eightfifty for the posting of the drawings AYA3094 & 3095, I did not have these in my collection. I trust that we can expect more drawings in the future.

I note that you say engine 9YG/Ta/H was in introduced with the 4 speed synchromesh transmission in YDO5. It has been my understanding that this event occurred with the introduction of the Morris Mini K, YG2S1 or Morris Mini 1100 YG2S3 and Morris Mini K Van which were fitted with a 1098cc engines prefix 10Yc/Ta/H, 10YJ/U/H respectively.

Within my records, which number in excess of 11,000 vehicles to date, I have yet to find an engine prefix 9YG/Ta/H, could you please advise where this prefix was used?

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PostPosted: Mon May 09, 2022 11:56 am 
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The pictures below show engine number assignments for the YDO5 998cc four speed synchro (you will of course note that the factory, even in most parts books, just used the term 4 speed synchro to mean synchromesh on four forward speeds). As we all know, the factory produced tens of thousands of cars some of which were not always available at retail, but sold as fleets, exports, and special orders. While the specification documentation for all variants is fairly complete, and as listed on my Identification Card, the drawings and internal standards do not show who the final customer was nor the purpose for which the vehicle was made. It is also interesting to see that the 1098cc 2/YDO5 (Mini K) is also specified with what is presumably a standard three speed synchro 10YB and a four speed synchro 10YC. The date of the drawings, and the inclusion of this part for a 4 speed synchro transmission in the parts listings, and the specifcation for this transmission in YDO5 before the introduction of 2/YDO5, seems to indicate with reasonable confidence when the grease nipple (one of the more prominent features of the housing under discussion) was introduced. As I said previously, the remote housing underwent many more changes over the years and these are all documented with year of introduction, but one would have to compare the drawing (which in this case has suffered with rips and patches) to the actual part which probably isn't worth the trouble for the sake of the OP who just wants to know which one is the right one for his car. Tony Cripps


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 9:23 am 
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Goodness!! There's something I never considered would have existed - production of a 998 with 4 synchro gearbox. That would have to be a very rare beast! There may be some still around, and it's quite possible that the owners don't know what they have

I love the amount of interesting detail that comes out of these discussions

Thanks Tony and John

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 10:13 am 
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I concur the statement "vehicles are designed and manufactured from technical drawings and not from parts catalogues" however vehicles are not manufactured from drawings alone. Somewhere within the process of manufacture a document such as "Bill of Quantities", a document similar in content to a Parts Catalogue, is prepared detailing not only the relevant drawings but the quantities of each item required to complete an assembly or sub assembly. In an engineering environment such as car manufacture, drawings will be prepared over a period of time in readiness for production.
When a major production change is planned, such as the introduction of a four synchro gearbox or an 1098cc engine as occurred with the release of the Morris Mini K YG2S1, an extensive time frame is required to complete the necessary documentation including drawings, Bill of Quantity and specifications. Upon completion, drawings are marked in some manner, following approval by the engineer in charge, which indicates there readiness for production, they may not be used for a period of time past this date.
Planning, at times, may include the possibility of various options which later for one reason or another may never be put into production. These options often appear of the various documents such as drawings.
Even in the most disciplined of engineering environments, running changes will occur which may never make it back to the source documents, namely drawings. It can be extremely difficult and time consuming to ensure that all drawings within a set are checked and marked as "as built".
In conclusion, what I am trying to say is that which is planned at day one may not necessarily be that which the customer will see as a finished product, therefore it is necessary to continually cross check planned against actual to highlight and document such changes.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 12:33 pm 
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In the process of vehicle design at BMC, the first documented item is a Sketch and many of these have been preserved. These often have an identifying number prefixed YS, indicating Australian Sketch. Then, things proceed to a Drawing. Australian produced drawings have drawing numbers with a Y in the second character position. There is a set procedure for assigning drawing numbers according to the type of part (mechanical, trim, body, etc). Often as not, the Drawing Number for a single item becomes the Part Number. The primary reference source for all parts scheduled for production are the Drawings since these contain the ideas from the sketches and also include actual dimensions, tolerances, materials, and finish (and as will be discussed below, revisions).

From these drawings, (which include individual parts, assemblies and tables) other documentation is prepared to allow vehicles to be manufactured. These manufacturing documents are things like Schedule of Parts (similar to what we would usually call a Bill of Materials), Engineering Release Note, Stop Orders, Drawing Office Instructions, Production Supplies Release, plus planning documents for the action to be taken at each station on the production line.

There is a set procedure for introducing engineering changes which fed back to Drawing Revisions. The picture below was drawn up by one of the engineers to illustrate the flow of documentation. These changes are documented through things like an Engineering Change Note, Engineering Change Summary, Engineering Change Recommendation, and Concession Request. Changes which are to be implemented are documented on the drawings and are dated. Superseded drawings were also kept in case a previous version had to be examined. We can thank Peter Davis for this exceptionally robust system. Peter and I are preparing a new book which gives samples of all the documents and how they were used.

Then, there is a multitude of other documents prepared later that allow the vehicles to be serviced, such as Workshop Manuals, Service Parts Lists with associated Parts Amendment Advice, Technical Bulletins, Product Problem Advice, Service Liaison Summaries, Product Fault Summaries etc.

The Service Parts Lists/Parts Catalogues are not catalogues for what was fitted in production (although they are often used by us now for this purpose). Service Parts Lists were published by the Parts and Accessories Division, not Product Engineering. P&A did, however, have a copy of a subset of the Product Engineering drawings and the P&A drawings are still in existence, and are those from which winabbey sometimes posts. In many cases, P&A arranged manufacture of the part with an outside supplier different to that which supplied production line items. The Service Parts Lists show “replacement parts”.

Although the discussion has gone beyond the OP’s question, I trust that the above widens the reader’s of view beyond the service documentation which although useful, should not be considered the final authority without reference to the drawings. - Tony Cripps


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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 4:12 pm 
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simon k wrote:
I love the amount of interesting detail that comes out of these discussions.

Thanks Tony and John

I agree.

In the absence of the vehicle production records we BMC & Leyland Australia enthusiasts need to look elsewhere to get an answer to even basic questions, like what was the original colour of my car, when was it made and does it have the original engine. Tony and John have both spent considerable time (and money) researching the areas they have decided to specialise in, and then producing publications as a way to share this knowledge with the broader community.

The challenge for them (and every other author for that matter) is to address any errors or inconsistencies. I doubt any technical book is perfect but we'd never have these publications if the author aimed for perfection before going to print. Providing a simple process to receive readers comments, updating a document when it's shown to be in error and then publishing the corrected page is an essential task for technical publication authors in my view.

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PostPosted: Tue May 10, 2022 4:55 pm 
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The danger of working from Service documents and plate observations is that these items are made after the vehicle was completed. In my view, one must proceed from a fixed point of reference forwards rather than going backwards from inconsistent data produced "post mortem" by a variety of people like Service Engineers, P&A, Sales, etc all of whom have a different perspective. If an observed vehicle is not made to the drawing, then the error is elsewhere down the line.

Interestingly, the Body Engineer for P76 often complained that the resulting water and dust leaks arose because the body wasn't made to the drawing. And he was right. What he didn't allow for was that his body design was so unforgiving of human nature, machine tolerances, employee experience, etc that it was impossible for the factory to make this car to the drawing. For the Mini range, there was the advantage that the design was pretty well proven in UK a year or two before we got it. Australian input was adjustment for local conditions for which the local Engineering Department was well qualified to do.

To address a previous comment, there were many variants of the 998 and 1098cc power units with letters going from A to N, each with some twist like a different rear axle ratio, low compression, short motor, etc. Special production orders could number just a few vehicles. Even production vehicles were as low as "one only" (e.g. Tasman Utility). Some (like an automatic Moke) were not produced at all, but were "on the books". All variants begin at serial number 1001. One cannot conclude it was never produced because no one has ever seen one. With the factory people nearing the end of their lives, our opportunity to rely on their memories is fast disappearing and in some cases, that's the only resource we have for some of these questions.

Revisions to the books I produce are made all the time and are available for anyone to download from the web site. I usually discover something worth changing from researhcing questions asked on this forum and other posts. I often get more data from a better scan of a drawing (most of these are hand-drawn of course and are adorned with ink smudges, rips, patches, etc and deciphering what's there isn't always easy). It wasn't CAD software.

Tony Cripps


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