Not sure how your going to get past the siamesed inlet problem when running this ECU kazjim? Even though seqential will help things, at high rpm the injectors generally cant "keep up" with the valve and you get some overlap happening. Which would lead to fuel that was mean't to go to one cylinder going to another and visa versa.

I'm not sure how that Big Al guy got around it - from what i can see his injectors are mounted on each side of his inlet manifold, which i would assume would act like multi point injection. Unless they are far enough away to create a constant flow of a/f mixture. If it were me i would mount them up on the intake runner. I can't see any disadvantages of it, and you could be sure you wont run into any siamesed inlet problems.

Have a look here - http://www.planet.eon.net/~chichm/efi/efi.htm

He couldn't get around the problem with a DTA ECU. Said that it ran up to 3000rpm with 200cc injectors, and up to 5000rpm with 500cc injectors, but won't idle...

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Mini - The Wizardry on Wheels!

Why can't two injectors be mounted in each inlet runner? Fire each one for each valve opening.

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Chris

Everything I like is either
illegal, immoral or fattening.

During the "overlap" period there would be just too much fuel hanging around......

I guess........

still learning about this stuff !

J

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Chris, think about how quickly an engine will be opening and closing the inlet valve at 7000rpm. There is no way an injector would be able to keep up with one - on all seqential fuel injection systems the injector basically starts firing all the time at high revs. This is all good on a normal engine, but on a siamesed one it isnt, as the the cylinder that opens first will get a rich mixture, and the next will get a weak mixture, resulting in a poorly running engine.

The only reason car companies go for seqential injection is for emission / economy purposes. You will find that it makes very little difference on power whether the injectors fire seqentially, or all at once, or even firing all the time. For example on Mercedes 190E's the injectors are constanlty "squirting" (they are mechanical fuel injection, but same principles apply). The air/fuel mixture just sits in the port until the valve opens. However, this wouldn't work in an A series with a conventional 5 port head.

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Mini - The Wizardry on Wheels!

I'm with Chichm... get an 8 port Elder (or other) head first, THEN add sequential F/I and it'll work, no problem.
Elder heads are not that dear really, (maybe $4K fitted) compared to the Arden 8 port, (which is not as good now as it once was). And GR says they now flow very well.

Never mind the KAD 16V, which is overpriced and over hyped.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

Good flow does not allways equate to good horsepower. It is always a pre requisite but just because it flows well does not gaurantee horsepower. If the fuel does not get atomised then all the flow in the world will not make HP. If the chamber and squish are wrong the same applies. What is the comparitve of the elder head against a five port? Do we see big HP gains? I am not trying to be argumentative here but saying it flows well means nothing. HP gain is what it is all about.

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Chris

Everything I like is either
illegal, immoral or fattening.

OK Chris- he's seen well over 140 HP on this road 1330 with the Elder head and 282 cam that we're dynoing next Sat, and with a race cam it's good for ~165-170. Good enough?
Best 5 port is over 155HP now, but unlike a race 8 port, you won't drive it on the street.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

agreed with Kev, and is the path im looking at too

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100% Pure A Series Turbo
Morris - The Original RedBull Racing

[quote="drmini in aust"
OK Chris- he's seen well over 140 HP on this road 1330 with the Elder head and 282 cam that we're dynoing next Sat, and with a race cam it's good for ~165-170. Good enough?
Best 5 port is over 155HP now, but unlike a race 8 port, you won't drive it on the street.[/quote]

Yes that's worth doing if you want to stick to an A series (which I do). The problem with a new head is the initial cost. I won't be doing it (sigh) as much as I would like to. I will start a new thread on these thoughts.

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Chris

Everything I like is either
illegal, immoral or fattening.

That Andy is a smart bugger, he did the same uni course as me... really nice bloke.

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Simon
Daily Driver - Yellow Devil 76 Clubman
Restoration Project - Primer grey 66 Morris Mini Deluxe

I found this thread while looking at my web page stats (as you do...)

Firstly, thanks to everyone who has said I'm a nice guy/smart bugger, much appreciated!

Simon: Which Simon are you? Turner? Bernard? G'day anyway!

Brad: Yeah I've been working on Chris' Mini - turns out a lot some of the problems were wiring issues (I didn't do the installation), although there was a triggering issue as well.

Basically there was a lot of interference between the high-tension leads and the pickup, so I changed the ECU design to provide more filtering and it's been good since - the other cars on the website (http://www.adaptronic.com.au/field.html) all trigger nicely that I've made that change to the design.

Since then we've had a few issues with idle speed, which isn't helped by the huge cams and throttle body from an SR20 with no warm-up reg. The crankcase breather wasn't hooked up correctly either so there could be an issue there. We're working through it!

We did try to hook up the knock sensor today but it appeared to false trigger from engine mechanical noise (not knocking) at mid RPM and upwards - so I am currently looking into this. So far the installations I have done have all been open-loop ignition control (not using knock sensor) so it hasn't been an issue but it is something that I need to get working properly.

From what I've heard the 4EFTE is very similar to the 4AGZE (-Z +T) in terms of triggering and so on, except that you'll be running a dizzy instead of coil packs - I'm looking forward to doing your car, but I understand if you want to wait until Chris' is sorted out! As it happens I should be doing a 4AGZE +T -Z soon anyway so I can let you know how it goes if you like. Every engine is different...


Injectors: Yes, this is why I suggested one injector on each port, and choose them so that the duty cycle of each pulse from the ECU is only about 20% at the maximum power produced. Then connect the ECU outputs in pairs to each injector so that it fires in time with the valve opening - therefore each injector has a maximum duty cycle of about 40%.

The standard injection on the Mazda B3 TBI engine uses a single injector which fires once per 180 degrees. It still idles fine, and the 121 bubbles get excellent fuel economy. Of course the timing isn't so critical because you have the intake runners to mix up the fuel. On a 5-port it will be much more critical.

Manufacturers may also use sequential injection to improve idle smoothness as well as reduce emissions. I concur that it doesn't add any power.

Have fun all!
Andy

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Andy Wyatt
Adaptronic Engine Management

hi Andy,,

Great to see you on here mate,, and thanks for the explinations on everything,, Will definatly be talking to you about your ecu if/when i decide that the toyota ecu is not keeping up with the engine build..

At the moment the intercooler and turbo are limiting me from going further as intake temps are pretty high and turbo runs out of puff at 12psi. (155hp@wheels) Im looking in the near future to run a water/air cooler under the bonnet and try to get the intake temps down to get the turbo upto the 15-16psi it should be able to run.... Probably need to go 4agze injectors then and i may find the ecu not upto the task.

But im not sure if it is really going to be a good idea trying to get any more power out of it as the thing is a weapon already and struggles for traction in 2nd/3rd gears now. It would be good to know i have the power there if i do upgrade the motor for track duties and such,, but one thing leads to another and ill probably need new clutch, lsd and tyres too,,,,,ahhhhh bloody cars

let us know how you go with chris's , are you planning to dyno it soon?
brad.

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1974 Moke - 998cc
76 Clubman B16a2 Vtec AWD Turbo 12.9@105mph
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V9PW49e1hYs

Hey hey!

Yeah I don't know how much benefit you could make from extra power, as you said with traction problems.

The plan was to dyno Chris' car at MRC - but at the moment we want to sort out the knock sensor and make sure the idle is good and that kind of thing first.

Have fun!

Sorry for the hijack James

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Andy Wyatt
Adaptronic Engine Management

Brad,

You could try an intercooler water spray. They are extremely effective at reducing peak temps, and is a hell of a lot cheaper than changing intercoolers.
Some Subarus come factory fitted with washer bottles with 2 pumps for this setup.
So long as the pressure is high & the nozzle puts out a fine mist, it should work well.
Putting a bit of metho in the water helps too, but can degrade some washer bottle seals.

Mike

PS the standard clubby washer pump is NOT suitable

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Too many cars, and too little time.

You might find this discussion on intercoolers helpful.

http://pforums.company-hosting.com/foru ... oler+spray

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Chris

Everything I like is either
illegal, immoral or fattening.