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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:10 pm 
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drmini in aust wrote:
Tadhg wrote:
Careful with statements like that - someone will come on here and start telling us to put rotaries in all our cars... :roll: :lol:

(puts fireproof suit on) :wink: If rotaries were the answer all cars would have em... the fact only one company made them work and it sent another to the wall trying tells you something. :P
Quite a few companies lost a lot of money trying to develop the rotary, none have ever been a success. (that should fire up the Mazda fans)
NSU went belly up selling them.
Citroen sold a couple of hundred and then re-called the lot and kept them. The car that they were meant for was sold with a normal engine)
Mercedes set a lot of speed records with theirs (probably still hold the speed record for the fastest wearing rotor seals)
GM designed a car for a rotary but decided to re-engine it with a normal engine.
Rolls-Royce were probably the most advanced of them all. How about this baby, that is not a spark plug, it is a fuel injector. (It is a Diesel)
Image

But the winner would have to be Renault with this fine creation.
Image
So you can combine all the disadvantages of a rotary with the worst bits of a reciprocating engine.

Now the only thing worse than Rotary engines is Rotary valves. :wink:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:13 pm 
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slinkey inc wrote:
It had a name cast onto it "The <something> Rotary Valve" it looke real old.
The Cross Rotary Valve?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:24 pm 
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Quite possibly, but cna't remember for sure. The place I saw it is just around the block from Morris Mania so next time I need a part for the Mini (which is inevitably going to happen, haha) I'll stop in to look to see if it's still there, It's been there since I took my carby there and stuff, a few months.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:36 pm 
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drmini in aust wrote:
If rotaries were the answer all cars would have em... the fact only one company made them work and it sent another to the wall trying tells you something. :P


But Holden had 13B rotaries in there cars... Holden is the best car company in the world, they are so good at coming up with there own designs...... :?

Image

yes i know, holden sold HJ kingos to Mazda and they put the 13B's in them in Japanland.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:42 pm 
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The only thing i like about rotarys are the big flames out the exhaust.Thats on a well j-ported or P-Ported mazda 13b


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 8:49 pm 
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the rotary valve induction type engines had major dramas with sealing the system/chamber, the exhaust soot & heat combined to make sealing the rotory valve shaft a total mess after a short while driving.

The same sort of system (well not exactly but still) works quite well on 2 stroke donks but only because it`s not got to combat the exhaust soot & heat as well, cause it`s only used as on the inlet side, so maybe there`s room for a half-breed engine with rotary inlet port/shaft & then poppet type exhaust valves

It was looking like a pretty dam good idea for a while, but i don`t think ANYTHING will ever """REPLACE""" the poppet valved engine,,, mazdas rotarys are working poretty dam good these days tho, but still have some issues of their own.

I`m thinking more along the lines of a polimer based gell cell above each valve which is controled / excited by elecrtic pulses/waves, the sort of thing that scientists are now using to control robotics

:-) Dam i`m smart hey??? :-)

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:06 pm 
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1098cc
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Slinkey, the Lambo wasn't a Muira, was it..? Not sure if there were any other sideways mounted V-engined Lambos... Same as you see at the beginning of The Italian Job (original). Another thing it had in common with the Mini was that its gearbox ran in the engine oil, in the sump of its V8.
The Rotary Valve is most likely listed somewhere on here: http://www.dself.dsl.pipex.com/MUSEUM/P ... alveIC.htm
The cool thing about a rotary valve is that it doesn't have to be the same shape as a standard poppet valve. You could have a "two valve" engine, but those two valves could take up the vast majority of the area of the top of the chamber, and the rotation of the tube minimizes the flame's time on the valve, keeping it cooler... Hopefully those Coates engines guys have found ways around the sealing, wear and dirt issues...
I only brought up F1 because the majority of the advantages on a Mini with solenoids would be down to getting rid of pushrods. But Minis have been over 10,000rpm... Otherwise, you need to look at it to replace the carbie/throttle body.
On the F1 point, Renault actually did use Solenoid Valve Actuation in F1. They used it when they came back into the sport around 2000, in the Bennetton chassis. That's why they had their wide angle V10's. Ilmor didn't like it, because they didn't believe it was worth the effort - too much extra weight at the top of the engine, higher C of G. Thus Renault's wide engine. But I'm not sure they still use it - they certainly now use a narrower bank angle. Have a look at these couple of links: http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ftpw012.html and http://www.halfbakery.com/idea/Cam-less_20Engine
Something interesting in the second link - they do point out that a solenoid in this application would basically need to be like a speaker. And speakers can run at over 20,000Hz (even higher, just that no human can hear it). That said, you could "musically" tune an engine - the on/off pattern required for controlling the valves would look similar to a "clipped" soundwave through an amplifier... Although it would be one wave, then three wavelengths of silence, then one wave... Valve opening would be volume (amplitude), and frequency is pitch... Is that complicating it?! :P
There only reason we have valve springs is to hold the valves shut, as in to stop them bouncing off the valve seats. There is an alternative - desmodronic valve actuation, ala Ducati. They don't need springs, a second cam holds the valves shut. If you have a dual acting solenoid, it would close the valve and hold it shut - theoretically you shouldn't need as heavy a spring. The spring would only be used as a safety measure. The main time when you need the valves shut is under compression and power, when all the forces are pushing the valves shut anyway. When it doesn't shut in a cam engine, it's often a combination of bouncing and resonant points in the spring, which combine to stop the valve seating. That's why they do multiple springs on valves - not (just) to get higher closing pressure, to reduce resonant frequencies in the springs. So the solenoid's strength might not need be as high as you might think... It's just speed and reliability.
It's all fun to think about... Even if it's just theory at the moment, and, for me, likely to stay that way!


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:30 pm 
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Man you guys should get out more. Ingersoll-rand had a huge wankel engine and there have even been lawnmower engines with the wankel. There are way more than Mazda although they are the only ones who cared.

Interestingly Mazda knew in the early seventies that the side port engine (now renesis) would help with the emissions issues but they couldn't get the engine to work well. Guess what fixed that- EFI welll well well!!

Anyway, Bishop engineering here in sydney have rotary valve engines running already. they are used in motorcross bikes but were being developed until the start of 06 for F1. the ban on new tech in F1 basically saw the end of 30+ engineers working on the project after a huge amount of public and private investment.

Solenoid valves could work, Fuel injectors do this already. the probelm is controlling the mass. Good luck doing this to the A-series though

Daniel

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 10:38 pm 
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Tadhg.

Yes it was a Muira, I looke up pics and yerp. Beautiful car. That's if it's genuine, I think it probably was and it had little 'bertone' badges aswell on it.

And I reckon it was the Mellors Rotary Valve.

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1975 Leyland Mini S 1100S powered - Nice and reliable.
1977 Leyland Mini LS - Project LS-T 8)


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2007 11:12 pm 
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A Muira... :o The car for which they invented the word "supercar". The first Lamborghini, from memory. Before that (and excluding a few show cars), Lamborghinis were tractors. And some still are. Literally. If it's geniune it would be worth an absolute mint... They were very rare...
The first couple of minutes of the original version of The Italian Job are scenes of an orange Muira driving up (and down) a mountain pass, and then into a tunnel... Beautiful car. If you watch closely, it shows the Muira's handling quirk - the steering doesn't self centre, the driver has to physically wind off the lock. At least he does in the movie... There were Ferraris, Maseratis, E-Types, and an Aston in The Italian Job, but everyone remembers the Minis. Gotta love it! :wink:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 4:20 pm 
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998cc
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8)
Sports850,
That was the Dunstan Rotary Valve Head for the original Holden Grey motor. Don't know what became of it though. I think they had problems with sealing the valve ports, but not sure.

RonR


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 7:15 pm 
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Tadhg wrote:
Slinkey, the Lambo wasn't a Muira, was it..? Not sure if there were any other sideways mounted V-engined Lambos... Same as you see at the beginning of The Italian Job (original). Another thing it had in common with the Mini was that its gearbox ran in the engine oil, in the sump of its V8.
V8! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:02 pm 
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:oops: You got me, Morris 1100... I couldn't remember for sure whether it was an 8 or a 12, I thought a 12, but I had 8 on the brain... So I tried to keep myself from putting in either number... But I missed one spot... :oops: It was late, I wasn't going to be bothered searching elsewhere at that time! :roll:
Don't worry, that wasn't my only mistake, the correct spelling is Miura... :oops:
So, to correct my statements and set the record straight, the Lamborghini Miura had a V12...


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:09 pm 
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Thats all right, I didn't think the transmission was in the sump until I googled it. :lol:

A transverse V8 is ok but a transverse V12 is something else. :shock: :D


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 17, 2007 9:42 pm 
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848cc
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That car is sweet as!
Pretty sure it's genuine aswell, in all it's lime green glory :D

Looked like it was pretty simple to tune too... :shock:

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