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| Turbo EFI Project..... https://ausmini.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=7790 |
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| Author: | kazjim [ Fri Jun 03, 2005 8:41 pm ] |
| Post subject: | Turbo EFI Project..... |
An Email from the ECU Developer...... Hey James, OK, here's what I think you'll need for the convo: Fuel system: 1. Injectors - I assume you'll be using two - one on each inlet port. They will need to be chosen to be four times the size that you'd normally have on a 4-cyl engine producing the same power, because you can only fire it when the intake valve is open. Using my ECU you can use high impedance or low impedance injectors. 2. Fuel rail for injectors - Performance Metalcraft (in Ermington) have an aluminium extrusion that you can drill/ream for the injectors to go into, and then you will need to weld the end caps on, and either weld on a pipe with a barb, or a threaded hole for a banjo fitting (then all the fittings can get expensive too). 3. Fuel pressure regulator - I would probably get one off a production car - preferably the one that the injectors came with because it will probably be an optimised fuel pressure for the spray pattern (although, that kind of goes out the window when you're talking about different port design). 4. High pressure fuel pump - pretty much any one will do - either in-tank or external. 5. Some kind of anti-surging system - either a swirl pot (a lower bit in the fuel tank which will have fuel even when you're cornering or accelerating) or a separate surge tank (and a separate fuel pump to fill it). Ignition system: two options - dizzy or coil packs With dizzy, you can keep your distributor and coil. You will need a separate igniter though to drive the coil (actually, I'm working on a version of the ECU with built-in igniters - it will be more expensive - more on this later). With coil packs, you run two x two-outlet coils (probably like on your V6 commy but minus one coil) - no distributor. You then need a two-channel igniter (or an ECU with two igniters built-in). Triggering system: you will need something on the camshaft. Because of the siamised port design the fuel injection timing will need to be closely matched to the valve timing, so you can ensure each cylinder gets the same amount of fuel. My ECU is pretty much compatible with anything that I've seen, or can be made to be so - I think you said that the N12 Pulsar dizzy fits on easily, in which case it would be really good if you could put on the cam angle sensor/dizzy off the N12 Exa or ET Pulsar - this gives good timing references and I have the triggering settings for it. Other things - the normal way is to have a plenum after the throttle, so that the inlet runners are sucking fairly much "still" air. The plenum should be about the capacity of the engine or slightly more (that's what I've heard anyway). Having said that, Joel (Rhapsody)'s plenum on his turbo 1.8 (BP) is much smaller than the one on my NA 1.5 (B5 - same manufacturer, same series engine) so I don't know what's going on there. You could try throttle body injection, that would remove some of the timing requirements of the multi-point system and the challenges of getting the cylinder phasing correct. In fact if you did this you wouldn't need a camhaft sensor; you could do one on the crankshaft, even if you want to run coil packs. Sensors: you'll need a MAP sensor for your primary load determination - obviously you pick one that's a bit more than your maximum absolute manifold pressure, so I think you'd use a 3 bar sensor. You can try to source one from a wrecker, otherwise I can sell you a new one from MSD for $100 + GST. I am also going to do a version of the ECU with a built-in MAP sensor, this will be more expensive but cheaper than buying the MAP sensor separately (like, maybe an extra $45 for you). When picking a throttle body, I'd pick one with a sensor attached. 3-wire potentiometer, or 4-wire (potentiometer + switch) is preferred. The switch-only type ones don't allow as good transient throttle response in my experience (you set up corrections for transient throttle behaviour, like your accelerator pump on a carby). Putting an oxygen sensor on will allow you to run closed loop, at least as good as the sensor will read - ie, stoichiometry. The way I normally set it up on turbo cars is for the engine to run at stoichiometry at light-medium loads (say up to 80 kPa MAP) then to run open loop above this, and tune the fuel map for a richer mixture. If you want to put on a wideband sensor you can run closed loop for richer mixtures but that's expensive. You can run an air temperature sensor to correct for air temperature variations, but this isn't essential. I'd recommend it but I know people who don't do it. You will need some water temperature sensor so the ECU can enrich the mixture when it's cold and change the cranking fuel amount based on coolant temperature. Depending on which throttle body you get, it may have an idle-air bypass solenoid or motor. My ECU can control this open-loop (set a duty cycle based on coolant temperature and for other things like electrical loads) and closed-loop (set a target idle speed - obviously it helps if the open-loop parameters are pretty close in the first place) - but this is not essential, I mean you've been surviving without it for a while now! Whatddyaguysreckon ? - a Go-er ? The ECU Is the Right price, (sorry, cant discuss here) but the other stuff... really expensive ? Cheers J |
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| Author: | benjamin [ Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:01 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
sounds really good although alot of work, will this help out in the power derpartment over th hiff44 turbo carb or will it just help things to run better or both. love to see a nice neat injected turbo a series go for it nad can you please bring your mini to the dyno thing on the 11th 
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| Author: | kazjim [ Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Mini not coming to Dyno on the 11th......I should be there.... maybe on Bike... I'm hoping it will help with the High-boost tunability.. like the ability to retard the ignition timing based on boost levels.... Dont get me wrong, the carb is good for some insane power levels, butif i can do the impossible again, I'll be happy..... (998 Turbo.. why would you do THAT ??) J |
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| Author: | drmini in aust [ Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:16 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
There WILL be a fuel injected 8 port van at Graham Russell's on the 11th.. 
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| Author: | benjamin [ Fri Jun 03, 2005 9:20 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
what types of injection is avaliable for minis ? i know of the stock spi and mpi but what else is there? weber alpha........ is ther any aftermarket kits made for minis? |
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| Author: | drmini in aust [ Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:26 pm ] |
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Nothing really unless you go 7 or 8 port head. Commercially available stuff for port injection assumes 1 port per cylinder.. there's bugger all available for siamese ported dinosaurs. |
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| Author: | Chris [ Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:07 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Why reinvent a setup when it already has been proven to work? Just copy what has been done. |
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| Author: | drmini in aust [ Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:16 pm ] |
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Chris wrote: Why reinvent a setup when it already has been proven to work? Just copy what has been done.
And the one that `works' and gives good power (with a 5 port head) is?? 
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| Author: | kazjim [ Fri Jun 03, 2005 11:21 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
Big Al .... End of story.... Worth a try anyway, isnt it ? Marcel Chicak's (sp?) 80HP Max was N/a .. NOT Turbo.. so i reckon there is another in there at least..... i cant see 160 being out of the equasion for a well tuned turbo 1275 (1310.... etc) I reckon the roof is about 140 for a 998/1100 ....... so about 110@wheels..... a 40Hp jump is worth the time / money to me !! J |
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| Author: | supercharged 850 [ Sat Jun 04, 2005 2:34 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
kazjim wrote: I reckon the roof is about 140 for a 998/1100 .......
so about 110@wheels..... You expect a 30hp drop thru the drivetrain??? Most minis I have seen dyno results from all showed about 40 - 45% loss.... so I would expect 140 at the crank to be about 90 at the wheels..... Or am I wrong? Dunno
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| Author: | TheMiniMan [ Sat Jun 04, 2005 10:22 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
drive train losses can usually be about, (READ """ABOUT""") 20% (ISH) it`s not a hard fact tho,,, so at 100hp donk can see roughly 80hp at the wheels (ISH) (Roughly) (depending on how well its built & what other internal & external """grabby-ness""" there is (how`s that for a technical term """Grabby-ness""" lucky it`s saturday or i`d have said "tightness"
very hard to acurately measure that sort of thing tho & then there`s also the torque factor... where a huge torquey donk may loose even more than the average donk through the drive train than a less grunty thing simply being due to the extra force into side loads through gears & thrusts from all that """MASSSIVE POWER""" crunching hard against side walls & thrusts & spreading gears apart & pushing hard onto the bearing sides etc etc etc therefore, larger more hp motors do tend to loose more through the drive train than smaller more sedate & gentle donks but anyone saying a "certain solid" % figure for drive train losses, really doesn`t understand what it`s all about. The rule of thumb for years & years has allways been bantered about at 30% for the average Joe Blow car,,,but hey,,,it`s just been a "Guestinmate" people can easilly trick the rolling road dynos, buy doing things like fitting very narrow tyres with huge preasures , light wheel bearing grease & no pre-load & things like that,,,, wide, sticky, low preasure tyres with poor wheel alignments & very tight wheel bearings & tight gearbox & drop gear clearances etc, will show a figure far less than realistic get my point??? hee hee,,,,it`s all so easy-peasy when you think about it,,,,just very hard to "calculate exactly" ,,,that`s why there are things invented called "Engine dynos" as opposed to Rolling road dynos,,,both are good things to evaluate any changes tho, no matter what is chaned on either dyno, it should show up whether the change was good or bad,,,so in effect,,,the dynos are really only good for comparisons |
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| Author: | 13secmini [ Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:40 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
hey james,, is that info from a guy called andy?? if so nice guy tell him i said hi and still thinking of putting his ecu on mine.... Just waiting to see how it goes once chris (twincammini) gets his on the dyno and running 100%, as he has had a couple of problems since putting the ecu on. |
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| Author: | Chris [ Sat Jun 04, 2005 11:59 am ] |
| Post subject: | |
drmini in aust wrote: Chris wrote: Why reinvent a setup when it already has been proven to work? Just copy what has been done. And the one that `works' and gives good power (with a 5 port head) is?? The one I linked to with the turbo. We are not talking multi point here (are we)? |
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| Author: | MiniK [ Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:06 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
13secmini wrote: hey james,, is that info from a guy called andy?? if so nice guy tell him i said hi and still thinking of putting his ecu on mine....
Just waiting to see how it goes once chris (twincammini) gets his on the dyno and running 100%, as he has had a couple of problems since putting the ecu on. Id say it is Brad cause it sounds like Andy  ...
Hes a top bloke...smart bugger too.. People who want to see his work go to www.adaptronic.com.au. Hes the man to talk to when it comes to ECU's etc
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| Author: | kazjim [ Sat Jun 04, 2005 3:58 pm ] |
| Post subject: | |
OK, Brad, yep its Andy.. he's pretty excited about your beast..... Yep, its going to me MULTI-POINT - Sequential injection.... Funds have been allocated, specs are being drawn up ..... now, to actually do it.... 
Certainly puts Rota-Moke back a few months, but hey, it'll be fun anyway! I'm guesstimating Geartrain losses to be about 25% matt, its what I've always used and its not too far off usually ....but like you say, its not that important.. .a Dyno is a measuring and comparison tool, not just a Number generator... So as long as you use the same Dyno, Drivetrain losses become irrelevant....yes ? Cheers J |
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