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How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the dodgy)
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Author:  Forbes [ Sat Dec 12, 2015 10:41 pm ]
Post subject:  How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the dodgy)
Hi guys,

With the wealth of knowledge and experience amongst the members of ausmini has there ever been a How To when someone is looking to buy a Cooper or S.

What are the differences to look for in bodywork, trim, where are the telltale ID numbers, what sequence should the numbers be in.

With barn finds more difficult to come by and hefty prices being asked for might be to the inexperienced buyer, re-bodied, re-badged or replica rather than genuine. Perhaps the purist members could put together a "How To" for those of us who don't have the in-depth knowledge of what/where to look for or what it should look like.

Noticed that when someone posts pics regarding a car for sale or one being considered for purchase, there are usually plenty of posts stating what looks right or wrong. With the time between seeing a car and purchasing same usually short then the more knowledge the buyer has the better the chance of getting the genuine article or getting a car for a lesser price since he can show it is not the genuine article.

Cheers,
Forbes
Author:  timmy201 [ Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:25 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
The problem with telling people exactly how to identify a Cooper S is you're also telling the undesirables how to make a very good copy of one too.

If you are serious about buying a car I'd start with:
Check the ID plate and engine number make sense against the registers viewforum.php?f=43
Get a local mini car club member/mini guru to check over the car
Author:  kiwiinwgtn [ Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
I have a check list i used when I brought my Cooper 998 UK its has 35 key points. I go around the car and tick them off
These cars are a little harder to fake properly as the upholstrey is unqiue.

The other big question is whats missing form a genuie car. This is also helpfull indicator and some times easier to spot.

You have got to remember the cars are 50 plus years old now and bits get changed by owners along they way due as you do.

I used to live in OZ and looked at quite a few Cooper S and there was a lot of replicas kicking about in 2000.

I did find one car that I believed was genuine OZ S but it had such a bad prep job rust was coming thru that put me off but it was a genuie car. I did also find a nice 997 Cooper which was also genuine regret not buying it now.
Author:  9YaTaH [ Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
timmy201 wrote:
The problem with telling people exactly how to identify a Cooper S is you're also telling the undesirables how to make a very good copy of one too.

If you are serious about buying a car I'd start with:
Check the ID plate and engine number make sense against the registers viewforum.php?f=43
Get a local mini car club member/mini guru to check over the car


What Timmy said :|
Author:  Mick [ Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:47 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
Every Car Club will have a specialist who can inspect a car with you. They will look at the particulars (mechanicals, numbers, plates) which are easy, body shell ((modern replacement panels vs original) but will also inspect for the things that can't be explained here; for example spot welds vs rivets vs brazing vs modern mig welds or the presence of a mish-mash of other trim and car parts. The last points can be very subtle. Disc brakes, a 1275, lockheed booster, right hand tank and speedo are just the beginning.

If you're going to outlay, the cost to have a club nominated person to vouch for the vehicle is really a small formality.
Author:  drjbeam [ Sun Dec 13, 2015 3:49 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
You don't hear of many stock leylands/clubmans becoming gt's,ss,sss,and what ever other models there was made and flogged for big dollars its always the cooper/cooper s
Author:  Morris 1100 [ Sun Dec 13, 2015 4:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
drjbeam wrote:
You don't hear of many stock leylands/clubmans becoming gt's,ss,sss,and what ever other models there was made and flogged for big dollars its always the cooper/cooper s

There are a lot of fake GTs and fake LSs around. A bloke got cranky with me on Friday for telling him his rare and unique LS is really a Leyland Mini.
Author:  winabbey [ Sun Dec 13, 2015 5:11 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
timmy201 wrote:
The problem with telling people exactly how to identify a Cooper S is you're also telling the undesirables how to make a very good copy of one too.

That may be the case, but by keeping the knowledge in the heads of a few experts we are playing completely into hands of unscrupulous people who create replicas and then try to pass them off as genuine. If the information is not in the public domain the dodgy seller can make claims about original features that a potential buyer may find hard to refute. Not all buyers have the opportunity or desire to employ a car club expert to examine a car, and car club experts are not equally proficient.

In my view we should have a publication for Australian produced cars along the lines of what John Parnell's Original Mini Cooper and Cooper S book does for UK made vehicles. It would explain the areas to check to help verify if a car is likely to be what it is claimed to be, whether Cooper, Cooper S, Clubman GT, or whatever. Of course the Cooper S often commands the highest price and I happen to have one so that's the model I would start with. The publication would have detailed photos and explanation of the things to look for. As a simple example, it would show up close the precise location of the tabs in the boot area for the fuel tank breather tubes and their method of attachment, which is spot welded for most cars. Spot welds penetrate to the other side of the panel and are very hard if not impossible to replicate in some areas of the body shell once it's assembled, so that's one thing a buyer would check and tick off. I reckon most replica builders would not know that the aperture for the right hand tank is not in a mirror image position to the aperture for the left hand tank. The relevant measurements would be detailed. Many of you reading this will have long lists of other items and areas to check, like the check sheet kiwiinwtgn mentioned above.

The guide would have good quality images of the ID plates, ADR Compliance plates and body shell stampings used throughout production showing the font used, method of stamping (machine or hand, from front or rear) and whether characters are upper or lower case. Making a really good replica of a plate that would pass close scrutiny is not an easy task in my view. According to my research the factory stamps used on the body shell are not easily obtainable. This means a replica builder would have to go to a lot of time, trouble and expense to create a near perfect car that would stand up to close examination by someone with the guide in hand. Hopefully, most would no longer bother as the effort would not be worth it. Replicas built in the past could also be subjected to closer scrutiny, and owners unsure if they have a genuine car or replica would have the information to let them check.

In the same way Mini enthusiasts have collaborated to produce the marque registers now published on Ausmini I believe there could be a community project to generate a detailed guide that would allow novices to check a prospective purchase. In addition, having an expert examine the car would minimise the likelihood of it being non-genuine.

As an aside, when I came back into the Mini community a few years ago I asked several car clubs if they could provide a copy of the document they used when assessing cars entered in concours competitions. I figured that if I was going to enter a Cooper S in such an event I should know what things the judges would be looking for and scoring against. The answer was that the document I was seeking did not exist or was not available to me. In essence it meant I should just trust the judging panel who were the experts. Whilst not a particularly encouraging response it got me thinking that the Mini community needed a publication like I've described. I haven't produced a draft yet, but I do have a lot of material that could be referenced and included. A possible title would be Anatomy of an Australian Cooper S.

What do others think?
Author:  rodmac [ Sun Dec 13, 2015 6:56 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
I think that is a great idea!
Author:  gtogreen1969 [ Sun Dec 13, 2015 7:30 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
In the past I have always been on the fence about this. I want to help out buyers but dont want to help the scum that do fakes. Most sales now appear on the net in some form and we have seen a lot of fakes appear in recent years. It is getting harder for these cars to be advertised without the scrutiny of the mini community. I am happy to provide the info I have for a book.
Author:  miniresto [ Sun Dec 13, 2015 8:28 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
Totally agree with Winabbey and gtogreen1969. A guide is something that really is needed for both buyers and show judges. I have judged many classes at many car shows and I have certainly found that fellow judges have differing opinions of what a particular model should have and not have.

As for a guide for the buyer, it might help those who buy then call me or other club presidents or dating officers asking if a car is genuine. I have had to on many occasion give someone the bad news of what they have just paid 20K for is not what they thought they purchased. As someone has already said, someone in the mini community will always pick a fake car when advertised.

Would more than happy to assist.
Author:  gtogreen1969 [ Mon Dec 14, 2015 12:13 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
This site has a bit of generic info and some pretty photos. Run by a Tim who is on here.
http://www.classicregister.com/content/ ... oper-s-mk1
Author:  9YaTaH [ Mon Dec 14, 2015 5:26 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
winabbey wrote:

What do others think?


A for effort...sadly, there is no way that having a guide available will prevent fakers bringing fakes into the market. An unforeseen risk may also be that genuine owners will be challenged or worse over a variation during production or a modification by a previous owner.

"Badge Engineering" has been going on for decades and is not always sinister or criminal in intent. If someone wants to dress their De Luxe as a Cooper, its a free country (at the time of writing) it would only be a problem if said owner tried to pass their creation off as a genuine item.
Author:  9YaTaH [ Mon Dec 14, 2015 6:42 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
winabbey wrote:

What do others think?


BTW whilst I have your attention (assumption!)...will there be a category in the MKII Cooper S Register for those that were "De Luxed"...mostly by dealers (and some racers) wanting to move stock and not have the impediment of prohibitively higher insurance for young ones.

MKI may have been similarly effected...I only know of MKIIs being converted.
Author:  winabbey [ Mon Dec 14, 2015 8:59 am ]
Post subject:  Re: How to tell the genuine from the replica (or even the do
9YaTaH wrote:
...will there be a category in the MKII Cooper S Register for those that were "De Luxed"...mostly by dealers (and some racers) wanting to move stock and not have the impediment of prohibitively higher insurance for young ones.

The registers are an attempt to recreate the factory production records. They only capture how the car looked when first built, ignoring subsequent modifications. So no, there will be no sub category for De Luxed Cooper S's.
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