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Alternative mini ignition system
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Author:  ausdino [ Sun Sep 22, 2024 6:14 pm ]
Post subject:  Alternative mini ignition system
Just after some feedback. I'm not trying to re-invent the wheel, but keen to try another ignition system on the Cooper S having read a fair bit about whats available - lumenition, petronix, accuspark, 123, Peak, CSI, black box etc. etc. I did run a Allison optical ignition (Opto xr700) on my first Cooper S >40 years ago with no problems. I still have it in a 25d.

Over 12 years ago, I converted the Dino from its original points & Dinoplex CDI ignition to Lumenition and Bosch igniter & coil (thanks to Adrian on Ferrarichat, who developed the concept for Dinos - http://www.dinoplex.org). It has made the car start far easier (especially starting when hot - airbox weber heat soak - a known inconvenience) and more tractable when cold. I will endeavor to adapt this system to the mini. Most of the parts used then will be the same again this time, except for the chopper wheel (Lumenition 201687 chopper or fk116 25d fitting Kit). The Bosch controller will mount on a bracket(heat sink) in the holes originally for the front bracket mounting the earlier lockheed booster, so no new holes. A separate fused power feed from the solenoid will power it, through a relay triggered by the ignition switch/ignition wire.

The same Bosch controller unit has been used in various Audi, BMW, Porsche & VW's. Its a high power ignition controller featuring electronic dwell management, current limiter/control and a tacho output. I see the same Bosch controller is used in the Ford BDA/D/G Performance ignitions' scorcher package. The lumenition Optronic OS50 optical pickup is used in lumenitions' kits.

I've just started sourcing the parts (again) and dismantling the 29D distributor for conversion. I know the concept works very well (7800+ in the v6), but have I missed anything in the mini situation? Is it overkill?

I realize at some stage, I will have to get the advance curve modified to suit the motor. Should be a fun project and far less daunting than taking a leap of faith and cutting up a Ferrari distributor points backing plate years ago. Just have to build a motor, do the body work, paint the car, assemble it and run it in before I can try it ..... (I do have a spare intact 29d distributor as a "fail-safe")
Author:  timmy201 [ Sun Sep 22, 2024 6:47 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative mini ignition system
I had a “Mini Sparc” system on my mini when I got it. I believe it used to be sold at Mini King a few decades ago

It uses a similar arrangement with a Bosch module (which monitors rpm and provides an appropriate dwell to charge the coil) and a high power coil

It’s a similar concept to this
http://dtec.net.au/High%20Energy%20Igni ... pgrade.htm

In terms of feedback:
A high power ignition is always a good idea, especially when trying to ignite lean or high compression engines
A more modern system like an MSD 6AL or the Peak system gives high energy sparks at higher rpm, plus the multi-spark events that helps at lower rpm
As you’ve mentioned the advance curve is just as important
Make sure the distributor spindle has no wobble
For a road engine vacuum advance has many advantages and as far as I can tell no disadvantages

It’s always great to see someone trying something different!
Author:  ausdino [ Sun Sep 22, 2024 7:37 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative mini ignition system
Thanks for the reply Timmy.
Both distributors are in good nick for 50yr old distributors with no wobble or apparent wear. They were very dirty inside with lots of old oil/grease. I don't really want to run vac advance as its a fairly original Mk2 S. I do realize the Bosch module will be unoriginal, but is relatively small and not a big red box like the MSD. It really transformed the Dino and hasn't missed a beat since install, revs cleanly to 7800 when required (has iridium plugs.)
Author:  68+86auto [ Sun Sep 22, 2024 9:33 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative mini ignition system
The scorcher distributors and the system timmy201 mentions actually use a different Bosch module (I think a few Scorcher models do use the same module but not most). They are for a magnetic trigger distributor. They use a four pin module that functions identically to a 4 pin GM HEI module. The mounting holes even have the same dimensions. Many Australian vehicles including both Ford and Holden all used the same four pin Bosch modules. They are used on the type of distributor used to make the Scorcher ones. Lucas even used the GM module inside their AB14 amplifier for their CEI ignition which was used on many vehicles such as MGBs but not in Australia. There is also a 7 pin version of the module which has dedicated earth terminals, it is more expensive though.

This is the type of system that I want to run. I have done lots of research into possible ways of fitting a magnetic trigger distributor (not optical or hall effect) into a mini. I've considered buying a Bosch distributor like the Scorcher ones but four cylinder ones are rare. Six and eight cylinder ones are available new although Chinese. There are some four cylinder pickup assemblies for sale new but they are $100 each and long term availability seems poor. There are some Mitsubishi pickup/reluctor kits available on eBay ($50) too which I suspect could be made to fit a Lucas distributor however they are also NOS so there is a limited supply. If one could find a common four cylinder reluctor, the pickups are easy to get. This conversion would require machining the cam round.

Pickup and reluctor as used on Bosch/Scorcher distributors. This is based on the GM HEI type of pickup.
Attachment:
Bosch.JPG


Mitsubishi Pickup and reluctor. This is of the Chrysler design and is the same as used by Lucas on the 59DM4 and 45DM4.
Attachment:
mitsubishi.JPG


This site talks about what you want to do but there's no pictures: https://www.leylandp76.com/technical/tech-electonicign.html

The simplest solution is to find a Lucas 45DM4 (A series) or 59DM4 (A+) as they don't need any modification other than of course the advance curve. The problem is that whilst they are relatively common in the UK and USA especially, they were never fitted to any Australian vehicles from what I've worked out. Most people don't even realise that this is likely the best electronic ignition option so basically throw them to the side.

The easiest solution for an A+ is to take a 65d and rip off the attached module. Then connect up a Bosch or GM module like the site Timmy linked to describes. The advantage over the factory module? The Bosch/GM modules are designed to run really low resistance coils so that's an option or they'll last a long time when using any coil a mini used due to reduced heat. Because the module is further from the engine it will also be cooler and last longer. Electronics hate heat so it's why I want an external module and to avoid an optical or hall effect trigger as they need some electronics at the distributor. The magnetic trigger is basically unaffected by heat. Unfortunately the 65D type is not available for the A series, I wish someone would make one.

There are some Lucas style Chinese distributors which use a magnetic trigger but the pickup is part of the module and mounted internally. The pickups fail relatively commonly. The pickup/module could be ripped out leaving just the reluctor. A Chrysler type pickup could probably then be fitted.

I believe the Nissan etc Hitachi distributors are a magnetic trigger type so could be used with an external module too.


Something to note:

People go on about getting a super high voltage coil and spark etc, many American vehicles did this for emissions purposes. One thing to note is that they used much larger distributors. The Lucas distributors are too small to have very high firing voltages, the internals are too close to the cap/rotor terminals. The Lucas CEI distributors had a plastic shield to reduce the risk of the high voltage making it's way to the internals.

Attachment:
Lucas CEI.jpg
Author:  lomin [ Mon Sep 23, 2024 9:45 pm ]
Post subject:  Re: Alternative mini ignition system
Hi, I think it is fantastic that people have a go at making better distributors, but in reality we are all up against the same problems.
In its day, the Bosch distributors and systems were the “bees knees”. quality, reliable and worked well. It did exactly what the manufacturer wanted, no more . There also was leaded fuel, which burns differently.
In todays era we know that the bosch 4 pin module was quite low on output, no long duration, and current stock is not of Bosch origin and of dubious quality. You do have a module and a separate wire wound reluctor that are both aftermarket, to think about
If you can find NOS bosch its worth a go.
If you cannot load test the system properly, or test with oscilloscopes etc, then you may only have a gut feeling of how good it is.
There is also coils to factor in, and i can assure you most leads are performance in name only.
As a professional i find it a bit sad.
On a brighter note , we are load testing, and durability testing an hitachi based new road distributor, and initial results are excellent.
There are some good products for minis, but you have to think about the product you are buying.
Cheers Lindsay Siebler Peakignition
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