G'day,

I'm putting the original 10"x 3.5" steel wheels on Minnie and have ordered a set of Falken SN807 145/80R10 to go on them. The tyre joint I'm getting them from reckons they will need tubes and asked me to send him some pics of the rims - as per the pics below. He's since confirmed that yes, in his opinion, they need tubes as there is insufficient lip on the rims and if the tyre pressure was a bit low and with hard cornering, there is a risk that the tyre would come off the bead.

In the BMC manuals, they specify that they are tubeless. I let him know this and he's ok to fit them as tubeless providing I bring the manual in with me and he can take a photocopy of it for his records. He's ordered tubes to suit and when the stock comes in, he's going to show me what the difference in rims is.

Don't get me wrong as there's no agro anywhere and our conversations have just been general conversations and I've told him I do appreciate his advice and I'm happy enough to fit the tubes if it's the safest option.

I'm just wondering what you blokes reckon? I've pulled apart 7 rims to get enough good ones and they were a mix of tubes and tubeless.

Cheers, Rocky

My experience is that tubes in tubeless tyres is no good. The inside of tubeless tyres are rough and can rub through the inner tube. I had more than 5 flat tyres (including one at 100kph) in a year due to inner tubes. If they are OK to fit them with valves and no tubes I’d personally prefer that.

The safety bead was added in 1970, so that the deflated tyre won’t come off. A flat inner tube isn’t going to help at all IMO

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Thanks for the heads up Timmy. Sounds like I should fitted a set of mags as my eldest son has suggested from day 1!

So the tyre bloke may be right in regards to the safety bit as my rims are all no older than 1963.

Rocky

With due respect to Rocky's tyre man, I cannot see how a tube will help keep a tyre (intended to be tubeless or tubed) on the rim in the event of lower air pressure.
Agree with timmy201 in his comments regarding tubeless tyres being used tubeless.
It might be interesting to ask what it is about modern tyre bead design that doesn't match with earlier wheel design.

My understanding of the issue with old and restored rims is that corrosion of the metal where the tyre bead sits against the rim can allow excessive air leaks and a tube gets around this sealing issue but may not be compatible with modern tubeless tyres as timmy says.

1950s-60s cars lacked "safety rims" (google it)

On another car I have (without safety rims) I have one size down tubes inside radial tyres.

Reason is to (hopefully) stop the tyres rolling off the rim under heavy corning...

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"Show me the Mini!"

Hi Bill,
Interestingly, only one of the tyre places I got prices from has recommended I fit tubes. I've sandblasted the rims and the ones I'm using are in pretty good nick. I did use my local tyre shop to take off the old tyres and at the time, he reckons the rims were ok to use even before he'd seen them all cleaned up. The local bloke's prices are a fair bit higher than where I'm getting them though.
I have wondered if the tyre place I'm going to just wants to sell me the tubes as an extra to make up for their lower tyre price.

To my mind, BMC would not have listed them as tubeless if they weren't. I've attached some pics of the pages in the manual for reference.

I have contacted Falken to get their technical advice re fitting tubes to tubeless designed cases but they haven't replied as yet. Sounds like I might be best to get them fitted without tubes.

Rocky

Last month I got the local Bob Jane branch to fit A008s to my ROH Contessa rims. They advised tubes were needed for those rims, which they supplied for $15 each. I always ran 10 inch Cooper S steel wheels with tubes in the past with mostly Bridgestone tyres on high speed interstate trips and never had any problems except for the odd puncture.

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Slide
1965 Mini Van (1360)
1970 Mk2 Cooper S (1310)
1978 Rover SD1 V8 (4.6)
1996 Land Rover Discovery V8 (4.0)

There's probably no good reason other than that's how it used to be... Quite a few shops I've been to won't fit tubeless tyres to Mini rims (especially the original ROH type mags). If you compare the inside of an old and new rim (one intended for tubeless fitting) you'll see a circumferential ridge about a cm or a bit more in from the edge of the rim. This ridge is intended to stop the bead of the (under-inflated) tyre from sliding across the inside of the rim and falling into the centre well... which will result in the tyre coming off the wheel. I think (but couldn't confirm) that the "J" designation on a rim size (10JX5) indicates the presence of this ridge ... and the wheels suitability for tubeless tyres.

I've also heard of the issue of heat buildup... and tyre failure as a consequence ... resulting from mixing tubeless tyres with tubes as Timmy noted...

I've run my Minilites, S steelies and LS mags with a mixture of tyres without tubes and without any problems for years (including suffering a few flats).

Cheers, Ian

I've had a set of those same tyres on the same 3.5" steel rims on my boat trailer for 14 years. No tubes.
I have had tubes inside modern tubeless Mini tyres and as others have said the tyre chafes the tube.
Talcum powder helps but it's no solution.
I run Contessa mags, I have never rolled a tyre off them on track days or road use.
If your tyre fitter won't mount them tubeless, find another tyre fitter.
Edited for clarity.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

The manual you are using is a UK one. But the Australian one ((TP838C 0178/3000) also quotes 848cc saloon & van as using tubeless tyres.

Thanks everyone for the replies - bit of a mixed bag experience wise with and without tubes. Interestingly, it's a Bob Jane store that is recommending tubes. None of the Tyrepower shops mentioned them.
I've googled safety rims and can now see the difference between them and my rims.

Bill - the Scientific Publications manual lists both UK and Australian production and as you say, both are listed as tubeless. As mine is a 1963, I'm not sure if the specs for the rims is UK or Aust.
On other forums, it seems to be a common thought that the stickers inside the tyres cause the biggest issue with chafing.
The tyre shop is prepared to fit them tubeless providing I provide a copy of the manual for his records and as he says "to cover my backside".

Will be interesting to hear what Falken come back with if they do reply.

Cheers, Rocky

I found it was the ribbing inside Yokohama A008s that chafed my tubes. (Edit) on my S wheels.
If Falkens are smooth you would be ok to use them.
Add some talcum powder.
Downside to tubes is water gets in around the valve stem and rusts the wheels.

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DrMini- 1970 wasaMatic 1360, Mk1S crank, 86.6HP (ATW) =~125 @ crank, 45 Dellorto (38 chokes), RE282 sprint cam, 1.5 rockers, 11.0:1 C/R.

Thanks Doc. I found a phone number for Falken and I'll ring their tech dept tomorrow and see what they've got to say. Haven't seen the inside of them yet. Good point about the water getting in. I noticed that with some of the rims I prepped. Some were still inflated but had been sitting outside for years are were very rusted inside. Not usable in fact.

I've done more motorkhanas than you can count on tyres that are meant to have tubes - I rolled a tyre off the rim one time when there was about 15psi in the tyres on a turn where the whole weight of the car was on it - they're stressing over nothing

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did I tell you that I won a trophy?

Agreed, I've only ever had a tubeless Falken tyre roll off a steel rim when it had a slow leak and deflated a bit, then drove New South Head Road like it was meant to be driven.

I've not used steel rims for ages and all the alloy rims i have are tubeless with no issues.

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the world is a book, and those who do not travel read only a page
66 Mini Minor sponsored by http://www.lifeonthehedge.com.au/ The Dog Harness Specialists
It was a pleasure ausmini. I'll miss all you misfits and reprobates