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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:01 pm 
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998cc
998cc

Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:20 pm
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Location: Victoria
TheMiniMan wrote:
The S brakes were fitted with a lower pressure limit valve (softer spring) & smaller rear cyls simply to help stop the rear brakes locking up (IE: to make them work "less" effectively)

this "combination" is perfect when discs are fitted to the front,
the factory did their job right

"IF" you still have large rear cyls & the std "mini" limit valve spring, you "WILL" have locking rear brakes with discs fitted on the front, especially dangerous in the wet

simple as that !!!

If you have a low peddle, then you have an adjustment issue of some sort,,, shoe or pad travel is exsessive for some reason

if you have a "spongey" peddle, then you have air in the system (generally) or a bend brake pad or swollen/guey hoses etc

if you have a low & spongey peddle, then you have a combination of all of the above

again---> simple as that

there are some people who have fitted the larger master cyl (.75)
& this will give a much higher, firmer peddle, when everything else is perfect
but then more peddle pressure is needed.

edit--> but to answer your question, yes fitting the smaller rear cyls will give a slight increase in active peddle height, provided everything else is in perfect working order, but it will be barely noticeable.

one thing people often forget about is the amount of movement the rear limit valve piston has, this does creat slight bit of peddle travel depressing the spring/piston inside it, quite often heard & felt.


So today I changed out the rear wheel cylinders to 5/8. Some improvement but minimal. Rechecked and rechecked everything. It's been 16 years since I have driven this car, only the last couple for the rebuild though. I wouldn't say it was a very low pedal, just doesn't feel right. Maybe I have gotten use to modern day braking and just expecting too much from the old girl.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 8:14 pm 
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1275cc
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TK wrote:
Love this thread.


If you love this thread then have a look at this one. http://www.pinkbike.com/forum/listcomme ... &pagenum=2


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:01 pm 
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998cc
998cc

Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:36 pm
Posts: 611
Location: Bentleigh, Melbourne
Just for info, my 67 Deluxe has Cooper S discs and rear cylinders, no booster. Rears have never locked up....

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67 Deluxe
Dry suspension
1293cc, 11:1 comp, RE 282 camshaft, 45 Weber, extractors etc
4 synchro close ratio gbox
Cooper S brakes, no booster
Stealth box, as Doc says "goes harder and idles!"
RH tank cos I needed it crossing the Nullarbor etc..


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:12 pm 
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1098cc
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Sorry Doc you it would appear that you are correct in that the pressure at the piston goes up, my sincerest apologies. I contacted the boys at 888 Racing today to ask for their input and it would seem it is not all that simple either. The change in diameter affects the bias front to rear as well as the pedal travel and as well as the rate of translation of the pistons against the shoe. The guys came to the general consensus that with a larger slave you would have greater pressure at the end point when the shoe is compressed but the pedal travel increase should provide more feedback as the slave piston travels more slowly into compression and thereby should be easier to resist locking the brakes through feedback in a longer throw. The problem apparently comes in if the system is boosted in a single circuit system necessitating the use of the bias valve to slow movement to the rear, or you crap yourself and stand on the pedal with full force.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 9:12 pm 
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1098cc
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Location: queensland
TK wrote:
Love this thread.



Feel free to contribute Ty

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1970 Cooper S ex-Bathurst & ATCC
1964 Austin Cooper S ex-Group C race car
1967 Morris Cooper S ex-Group B
1962 Mini Speed sports sedan
1968-71 ex-Peter Manton Shell car


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 25, 2016 10:12 pm 
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1275cc
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Location: Western Queensland
low n blown wrote:
. I contacted the boys at 888 Racing today to ask for their input and it would seem it is not all that simple either. .



Just get the boys to fit a Brake Bias Lever like they have in their cars.. and your problem is solved for locking rears!! :P :P :P

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 9:23 am 
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1275cc
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Location: Brisbane
I have nothing to contibute Greg, all above my brain capacity, but I have always thought that 5/8 cylinders must be fitted with discs.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 10:58 am 
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1275cc
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Location: Wollongong, NSW
There is a reference table here of all the different combinations (master, wheel cylinders and discs etc) fitted to UK factory cars. It's probably a good idea to stick to a factory combination if possible so you know the F/R balance and fluid capacity will be OK. (Click to enlarge)
Attachment:
Capture2.JPG


Scroll to the bottom table on this link...
http://www.minispares.com/catalogues/cl ... px?1~9~105


You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 7:41 pm 
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848cc
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My original mini deluxe 25 years ago had been fitted with cooper s discs. It was always very easy to lock up the back wheels and usually they were sliding down the camber well before the front looked like locking up. Needed to replace a leaking rear wheel cylinder and I noticed it was 3/4' rather than the 5/8"I bought 'for a cooper s'. Even after changing to 5/8 it was still quite easy to lock the wheels. I imagine the regulator valve was still a deluxe.


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PostPosted: Wed Oct 26, 2016 8:14 pm 
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1275cc
1275cc

Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 5:44 pm
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timmy201 wrote:
There is a reference table here of all the different combinations (master, wheel cylinders and discs etc) fitted to UK factory cars. It's probably a good idea to stick to a factory combination if possible so you know the F/R balance and fluid capacity will be OK. (Click to enlarge)



Thanks Timmy - useful reference!


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PostPosted: Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:02 pm 
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Location: Wodonga - Vic/NSW border
Minicooper4me wrote:
It's been 16 years since I have driven this car, only the last couple for the rebuild though. I wouldn't say it was a very low pedal, just doesn't feel right.


You should be able to have an almost solid pedal with only an small amount (~10mm?) of 'soft' travel. I suggest that you clamp off all 4 flexible lines and test the brake pedal for each individually, after 16 years the hoses may have deteriorated inside and are flexing internally....



now, not to go all name dropping (but I will!) on Monday, while Rauno Aaltonen was spiritedly driving my S down the beautifully cambered winding road into Marysille, we were talking (shouting) about a lot of car setup related things including brakes. I don't have a booster on my car, he said he doesn't like them much, but minis need it. He asked if my car has a booster - he said he wasn't sure because the pedal is very good for a car without a booster.

Coincidentally, I have a newly reconditioned VH44J ready to go on this weekend... my 12 and 14yo daughters have a bit of trouble stopping the it in khanacrosses

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 06, 2016 9:25 pm 
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998cc
998cc

Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:20 pm
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Location: Victoria
simon k wrote:
Minicooper4me wrote:
It's been 16 years since I have driven this car, only the last couple for the rebuild though. I wouldn't say it was a very low pedal, just doesn't feel right.


You should be able to have an almost solid pedal with only an small amount (~10mm?) of 'soft' travel. I suggest that you clamp off all 4 flexible lines and test the brake pedal for each individually, after 16 years the hoses may have deteriorated inside and are flexing internally....


Just a thought, might be clutching at straws though. The hoses are new Goodrich but appear to be slightly smaller in diameter than the originals. By changing back to the original type black ones, do you think this would make some difference.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 5:10 pm 
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998cc
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Is it different I.D or O.D? Sounds a little like a straw!!!

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 25, 2016 8:13 pm 
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998cc
998cc

Joined: Sat Nov 23, 2013 7:20 pm
Posts: 645
Location: Victoria
Finally sorted my low brake pedal height issue. Went through everything individually of what had been done and checked over.
Front caliper kits, checked ok.
New Disc pads, checked ok.
New brake hoses and lines, checked ok.
New Rear wheel cylinders, checked ok.
New Rear shoes and drums, checked ok.
Rear bias, checked ok.
Adjustment checked, ok.
New clevis pin and mcyl rod, checked ok.
System rebled, first by vacuum bleeder, then the old 'pump up', hold down, open bleeder way.

Hmm, possible air in one rear cylinder. Rebled, no better, nothing detected as anything wrong with cyl.

This led me to suspect the master cylinder, the only thing in the whole brake that wasn't new, even though it had a new kit through it, out it came for inspection. Everything was assembled the correct way, but the new rubbers had all gone spongy like in a couple weeks, and appeared to be letting air past the crappy seals. Don't know if this was just a one off crappy kit, but bugger it, in the bin it went and a new cyl was purchased.

Rebled as normal, best pedal ever, test driven, no lock up, great brakes.

Thanks to all the readers and helpful comments along the way.


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